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Forum:Notability
Reason for Opening Discussion on this Topic I'd like to open a discussion on the concept of notability within the FK wiki so we can begin the process of getting Policies and Guideline proposals in the works specifically for notable persons. This discussion is beginning because of the creation of the article on Jean Prior, founder of the FORKNI-L List. Her notability is not in question but provides us with a question about what other people might consider notable for themselves should they happen upon the wiki and be tempted to produce a page merely for themselves. A question also arises about the difference between notable persons in FK History and Authors of fan fiction and how the two must be combined or teased apart as necessary for purposes at this wiki. Categorization of notable persons, especially those who are *not* fan-fiction authors needs to be discussed. For reference, I'd like to point readers to the Wikipedia Notability Guideline as that is the grandaddy of notability writings. I'm in the process of looking for other possible examples of notability guidelines that may be more suitable to this wiki. As I find them, assuming I find them, I will link them here. When we have enough weight of discussion, we can get an official draft of the guidelines and policies in place in the Policies and Guidelines Forum.--Kodia 14:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC) :If one looks at our current list of "notables" (as seen in the list of pages in that category), the things that seem to stand out as common factors are service to and leadership within our fan community—to varying degrees, in various combinations of degree, since people have done different things. We have people who have started or managed lists. Ditto on archives. People involved in this wiki. (Who else qualifies on these grounds who we don't have already? Mel Moser and Kristin Harris come to mind.) :What should we decide about faction leaders and the like? (And, if we include them, who should be added?) -- Greer Watson 20:00, September 4, 2009 (UTC) ::Hmm. I can't think off the top of my head of others right now, likely because of the lateness of the house. As for faction leaders, maybe some, but likely not all. It's just that its so subjective when there aren't a lot of editors in the mix yet. We'd probably have to go to the email list for opinions right now.--Kodia 03:21, September 7, 2009 (UTC) ------ You've probably seen this, but I thought it worth while posting the link. Especially interesting is the following: I'd propose the following as dimensions for status determination in fanfic communities. They aren't ranked since (as noted) I haven't seen a great deal of agreement on what the weighting should be. 1) length of time in the fandom (or in fandom generally) 2) contribution to or maintenance of (non-personal) archives 3) contribution to or responsibility for fandom awards 4) maintenance of mailing lists, newsgroups, newsletters, or discussion boards 5) frequent (positive) contributions to mailing lists or newsgroups (including public feedback) 6) frequently cited LJ or blog contributions to metadiscussions 7) number of fanfic awards won 8) amount of public feedback received on lists, or number of reviews on archives like ff.net, etc. 9) number of persons on an individual's fanfic mailing list (e.g. Yahoogroups, etc.) 10) size of "friend of" list on LJ 11) number of citations on recommendation pages and in LJs/blogs 12) 'real-life' age (if revealed) 13) whether one writes 'slash, het or gen' (which ranks higher is fandom-specific) 14) ability to complete complex and lengthy works 15) power to sway opinion within a fandom or to create of seminal elements of 'fanon' 16) contributions in artistic website design and photomanipulation Notice that I didn't put the amorphous "ability to write." Beyond clean grammar and spelling, what "ability to write" means is not clearly agreed upon, though part of the whole "BNF" question involves validation of one's ability to write, and concrete markers are sought as proof -- frequency of recommendations, awards won, citations in LJ discussions, numbers on personal mailing lists ... these are all quantifiable markers. We never did get back to discussing this topic—and it's no less relevant than it was when this page was started. We still need some criteria for notability/noteworthiness/(notoriety). -- Greer Watson 20:22, March 24, 2010 (UTC) Fan and People and whatever In sorting out the wanted pages, I've discovered a number of names for which I need category direction. * Authors - easy, page in Category:Authors and page in Category:Works By Authors * Editors of Fanzines * Publishers of Fanzines * Video Author - I'm going to ask around my vid friends and find out if there's a fandom standard term on this. * Fan who have created websites - "Webmasters"? * List Creators (Mailing, Group, LJ Communities) * List Owners (Mailing, Group, LJ Communities) * Crew - easy, page in Category:Crew Thanks for the assist! --Susanmgarrett 00:32, January 26, 2010 (UTC) :What kind of direction are you looking for specifically? Whether or not to create those categories or whether or not the categories are notable (as this is a forum for planning Notability)? If you can let me know specifically what you're looking for, I'll try to help.--Kodia 02:24, January 26, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm looking for an existing category in which the above types of people should be listed. * If there's an existing category you think it should go into, please let me know what that category is. * If there's not an existing category, please let me know what category you would like to put them in. For example, is it necessary to separate List Owners and List Creators? Would it make sense to lump then (and website owners/creators) into a web community creators category, or should mailing lists be separate from websites? Also, the first answer I've gotten on my question as to what to call the people who create fan music videos is either 'vidders' or 'editors'. Thanks! Susanmgarrett 04:32, January 26, 2010 (UTC) :::I'd keep mailing lists and websites separate. -- Greer Watson 07:39, January 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::Let me expand on this. People who start/own/run mailing lists, Yahoo groups, LJ communities (etcetera) are, to a very considerable degree, playing the ongoing role of wrangler: they monitor the list/group/community, vet/add new members, suggest activities, quell flamewars, and the like. However, the list/group/community members play an enormous role in terms of actually doing stuff, since they are the ones doing the posting. ::::On the other hand, a website is usually under one person's control. Many are essentially personal, even when they contain a wide range of FK-related material or provide a resource used by many fans. Granted, there are some sites whose contents have been produced by multiple fans (as with a faction site or one of the big story archives); but, even so, work on the site itself is very much under one person's control. ::::I would say, therefore, that these are sufficiently different roles to be kept separate in terms of categories. -- Greer Watson 07:52, January 26, 2010 (UTC) :::Don't we already have Category:Video Authors? -- Greer Watson 07:41, January 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::Evidently we do, since the link is blue! -- Greer Watson 07:43, January 26, 2010 (UTC) :::If owners of websites are to be considered as a category, then I would avoid the term "webmaster", since it is often interpreted as masculine—hence the frequency of the term "webmistress" in fan circles. Conversely, the possible existence of male owners of FK websites makes me uneasy about using "webmistress", since men have the same delicate sensibilities as ardent feminists, albeit not for quite the same reason. Perhaps some gender neutral term would be better, such as "website owner"? -- Greer Watson 08:16, January 26, 2010 (UTC) Subcategories of Fan We now have the following subcategories within the supraordinate category of Category:Notable fans: * Category:Archivists * Category:Artists * Category:Authors * Category:Fanzine editors * Category:List Moderators * Category:Video Authors * Category:Website Owners The following should be noted: * Archivists includes only those people who are archiving broadly, i.e. NOT people who simply archive their own fan fiction and/or art on their own personal website. However, a wide variety of things are capable of being (and have been) archived, including FORKNI-L mailings, screen captures, and websites. * Artists have not been much dealt with in this wiki. So far. (One consequence is that, despite the fact that there are actually several quite different types, we have no subcategorization. Yet.) * Authors, on the other hand, are legion—and yet we still have many more to go! * Fanzine editors are mostly associated with anthologies. We also have a category for Category:Fanzine Publishers, which are mostly companies. An individual can be a fanzine publisher, of course; but I think not if they are simply self-publishing. * List Moderators subsumes list owners and list creators, unless you feel there is a significant need to make distinctions. * Video authors make fan videos. * Website Owners includes people with personal sites, as well as those with focused fan sites and those providing "one-stop shops" containing different types of fan material (e.g. Mr Happy's). However, owners of personal sites are only included if the site is either primarily an FK site or, if a multi-fandom site, has a large FK section. This should exclude the tiny personal multi-fandom site that happens to include a couple of FK stories and a crossover or two. With the new categories in place, we then have to consider the small group of people who are themselves listed as Category:Notable fans. Most undoubtedly still qualify as such. However, there may be a few who were put there by default of a more appropriate category. Perhaps they should now be shifted over. It should be noted that the list is still not quite comprehensive. I'm sure there are yet more possible activities not covered. (Organizers of conventions, for instance.) However, we can always make more categories if they should prove necessary. -- Greer Watson 04:20, June 22, 2010 (UTC) :Hmm. So what would be the criteria for getting a new one created then? It seems to me that it would be easy to say "Hey, I'm a GreenBaby, that's a subcategory." And then they want a subcategory. When do we say yes and no?--Kodia 13:03, July 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Sufficient unto the day is the category thereof. -- Greer Watson 11:03, July 6, 2010 (UTC) ::: To the above list, I've just added Category:Warleaders. In the context of FK, I think their notability is obvious. --Greer Watson (talk) 04:37, July 12, 2015 (UTC) Agreed on all of the above and I think we're doing well.--Kodia (talk) 13:18, July 12, 2015 (UTC)